foreign thanks for tuning in to Jin and tantro spirituality with the twist you have Daniel on the mic with you today uh Eric is is still on a bit of a sabbatical we could call it unpaid vacation because uh this is not paid so therefore his vacation is also unpaid uh but he'll be back with us soon however uh sitting in the co-pilot chair today I know we always use ship references for this thing you know I don't know if we're we call it the mothership but I'm not sure if it's like an alien craft or like a ship like on the water of some type but anyways my my co-captain here today is a friend of the show frequent guest Priscilla say hi hi thanks for uh thanks for joining us um just keep in mind this is audio and video so you know the the audio folks can't see you wave but maybe they could hear the subtle hint of wind passing by the mic is a whoosh that's a subtle whoosh um anyways thanks for coming on here and and chatting with me today uh I appreciate it we were just uh you know we well audience knows because we talk about uh pre-show meetings and things like this so we were just talking about how um you know I've been kind of been the the main driver of the ship here for the last uh few episodes but and I was like oh I'm doing it by myself but then in reality like much to the point of our episode today I'm totally not because I've had on you know fantastic people to to chat with including yourself uh so it's definitely not by myself uh it's with all these wonderful human beings I'm assuming you're a human you appear to be but you know if not I accept you for who for who you are um all right well let's get started so uh the title of this episode uh probably going to be like boundary and vulnerability something along these lines right and we want we do want to discuss these things today as this has been something that Priscilla you had brought up the other day and I called you and told you a story right yes that's how right that kind of that brought up one piece yeah my brain works in like pictures sometimes and sometimes I'll like be watching something in real life I'm like oh man that like relates to me on a bigger level you don't have to call you and tell you about it sometimes yeah well and and I think but that's the point right is that like you can take the the experience the fodder from your life and use it in in your own like development you know what I'm saying so and I think that happens for most people you know I really I do think that people get hit by lots of stuff and and so we try and provide we try and provide some of those moments aha um so anyway so in the context of of where we're going to come today I'm going to give a little bit of an opening here and then we can kind of build on that so uh in the Buddhist tradition there's this idea of the three jewels which we have discussed at length in various episodes I'm going to give us a quick little rundown again just for you know I guess reference purposes but the three jewels not in any specific order but in this order how they usually call them is the Buddha the Dharma and the Sangha the Buddha is in in reference not necessarily to the historical you know Siddhartha character Buddha but to your own enlightened being inside of you and I'm not even going to call it like latent or asleep we'll just say currently in development um I I have titled not titled but I have used as a a footer to some letters that I have written before DOD Department of development and so this is kind of how I feel about all these aspects of ourselves anyways uh the Dharma is in reference to teachings and and in some translations Dharma also means reality so I guess we could say teachings on reality and reality doesn't necessarily mean like the rules and and and boundaries of current Society uh but of actual reality itself and the last one is Sangha Sangha is uh most often referred to as the community or in this case a spiritual Community um but this is a both a literal and in a relative sense the relative nature of of existence is that we are all sort of interconnected with everyone and everything and this isn't hyperbole but exactly what I meant to say is that we're relatively connected on on a level of you know you can call it like a microcosmic level right we have our physics people here right so we've studied sort of Newtonian things where you look at reality as like big uh cue balls you know pool balls that hit each other and bounce and do that thing but then you have relative physics which you know tells us that things are sort of they're there but they're not there in that specific way that we had once viewed them to be when viewed on us on a much uh larger I guess microscopic Viewpoint right and so what I'm saying is that like we're going to be discussing things on sort of a macro and a micro level on the macro level we have a community and it could be a spiritual Community like maybe if you go to church there's people there or mosque or synagogue or Temple or whatever you go to or you could be in school or you could be at a gym or whatever kind of at a community center wherever you're at right that's a community of people but then we have the larger Community around us the people who we interact with at work which is another Community but then maybe the people on the street or the Barista at the coffee shop or the person who working at McDonald's will get your you know Egg McMuffin in the morning you know whatever it's another it's you know it's an extension of that Community but it is a community nonetheless and so your interactions with all these people ultimately are like I guess expressions of yourself and so as we're going to look at this including your families in the community we want to be able to highlight that like yes we are all interconnected and the understanding and realization of this and the living of this is an infinitely compassionate way to be however the relative side of that argument is that we are different we are separate on a grander scale like Priscilla I'm at this moment separate from you and you're separate from your husband and from your children and I'm talking the listeners are listening you know there's there's obviously I'm not that we're not quote unquote the same but yet we are you know on a deep level so what we're talking about is the grosser level right of the cue balls smashing around and things and the importance of of two things and then I want to give you a chance to talk um one of boundary one of vulnerability and then the wild card holding space so oh yeah yeah it's like we didn't have that in the pre-talk like this is literally a wild card for me too I'm like what that's right yeah because that was a cool it's cool I want to discuss it a little bit because it's part of this right that's the community community boundary you know anyway so I want to give a couple definitions and and then I specifically I want to get your your your opinion reaction to the second one okay um but so according to or you know uh the the dictionary it says boundary a limit of a subject or a sphere of activity and when speaking about a personal boundary they call it the limits and rules we set for ourselves within relationships pretty straightforward okay but then the definition this is all from the Oxford dictionary of vulnerability to me was interesting and I'd love to hear your thoughts vulnerability is the quality or state of being exposed to the possibility of being attacked or harmed either physically or emotionally okay now I thought that that definition of vulnerability is insinuating an inherent attack as if leaving yourself exposed means leaving yourself exposed for harm and harm only yes but I would kind of agree with it too sure because I like I actually in that um podcast that we're that I've been listening to with God Vermont Dr Gabriel mate he's like he describes vulnerability I think the extent of which we're willing to be wound like the depth of which we're willing to be wounded you know and so like it's a state of mind like vulnerability it's not just about being wounded it's about the depth like how like how many layers are you willing to take off to like you know like like the belly of an animal is vulnerable you know like because there's no bones protecting the organs there it's soft you know that's a vulnerable spot in the body so I think of it like that like how many layers and how deep am I willing to get raw enough to like come into another relationship or face to face with another person and be willing to you know like sometimes words like my own definitions of words can be harmful like you you may not have the same definition for a same word and you say it to me um and if I'm not vulnerable enough to understand that like you are your own separate person um I could feel attacked about that and sometimes we protect ourselves from that but like you know being vulnerable to me means like an open State of Mind to be like as um as raw as I can possibly be you know like no per no protection you know like I said like the soft flesh belly underbelly of an animal or even our own selves you know um which is interesting I think the heart like the heart's an interesting place where it says I think it's funny that sits behind such like a hard sternum in the rib cage you know like there's already some like you know because um I mean I feel like that's where we're more most vulnerable we already have like a physical protection over it so to be vulnerable I think takes you know it takes an awareness it takes an effort you know like for real and then how would you how would you relate this idea or or well not the idea but the sense of vulnerability with your own boundaries I mean I you know we kind of talked a little bit earlier but you know sharing now it's like to me that seems like the um the protection of your vulnerability is your boundary or are your boundaries yeah that's what you're saying yeah like you can't just I feel like yeah you can't just walk around with like your heart out in the open for just like because the world is Harsh and it's not fair you know like I mean I was just on here what a couple weeks ago talking about the you know there's you know sometimes life is really unfair so we do have to protect ourselves like human beings in general like love boundaries like we really do we like to know where the lines are you know we we think sometimes in like black and white you know um and so it's an exploration you know like it it feels safe to have boundaries like I feel like if you were in the middle of the woods you would feel much safer in a brick house at one o'clock in the morning with howling and growling noises around you than you would With No Boundaries or borders like just in like out in the open sleeping on the grass there's something to say about like boundaries protecting us and then the safeness that that feels like and um I don't know if I've it's maybe been mentioned before that um I practice cranial sacral therapy and one of the ideas about you know transformation or being able to have your nervous system a certain relaxed sort of way is that you have to feel safe and so to be vulnerable you have to feel safe and to feel safe you have to have a boundary of some sort like and so it's like this very weird Circle um to be super open you would have to have a container like I think we talked yesterday it was like contained but not constrained you know like you had mentioned that like idea so um you you have to feel safe of some sort and so by setting our own boundaries and knowing where they are it creates safety in us and once we feel safe I believe that we can allow ourselves to be vulnerable because vulnerability comes from like in my head it comes from like arrest and digest you know that place of the nervous system that is open and relaxed and it's not in fight or flight or like on guard so uh so I hear what you're saying and I agree with you on on the relative level right and you bring up a really good point and you worded it very correctly and very logically and I but what did you say in order to feel vulnerable you have to feel safe and in order to feel safe you have to have boundaries right well I I think boundaries is I think boundaries helps create a safe space so that's all I'm saying it's not the only thing I mean there's a ton of things in a cat they say there's tons of other resources and other ways to feel safe for sure but I'm saying in general um it's part of I think it in general like it's it's part of like um it's a very I think it's a very deep primal thing you know something that like exists beyond our own understanding that like this idea of safety or whatever um you know comes from you know part of it can come from boundaries you know yeah I agree on on a grand level I agree but you know as we're talking I'm like in love with my own thought which is such like an egoic thing to feel you know but I I so you're fine give me one second I'm just gonna yeah so so as you're you know doing your thing I mean okay sorry I had to turn on my power strip that was like right no you're good you're good powerwise all right so in order to feel vulnerable in order to be vulnerable one has to feel safe or one it's a it's a it's one of maybe several requirements but it's definitely one but the idea of feeling safe you it I guess for me intends that you are not feeling unsafe and I know that seems like a stupid linguistic thing but if you're not concerned like if you don't have a concern of like your own self-preservation then say for unsafe is no longer part of the equation what do you mean can you say that again really quick yeah right I know I took it so as you're talking I'm processing this as we're as it's happening okay so again in order to to experience vulnerability or to feel vulnerable to be vulnerable one has to feel safe right because according to the definition I mean this is just yeah this is just a theory like that would make sense in my head based on my own experiences and my own practices yes it's not I'm right I'm yeah yeah right but and I think again according to this definition which you agreed with is not Court this is not Court you're good you know um oh no I'm cool okay okay so but like again according to and according to what you know Dr cabramatta said right that like you have to have some sense of safety right in order to be able to go into the depths of your own vulnerability but what I'm saying is that that's a premise that is based upon self-preservation because safety huh of course it is of course it is like I just said it comes from like such a primal place that we don't even understand like safety is a it's a primal thing it's like being safe like your basic needs as a human being come from such a deep-seated source of survival it comes from such a low Primal like thing right but absolutely so I'm building our I'm I'm like secretly building our conversation from the inside most deepest seed State out that I'm not even aware I'm just doing it as it's happening okay but this idea of self-preservation is inherent in all of us this is why we're alive this is why we struggle for life but what if what if someone was able to transcend that limitation they were able to transcend that the idea of self-preservation and I'm not not Bridge because they don't care but what I'm I'm referencing is like all these stories of like the of really specifically of the stories of Buddha right the historical stories of him sacrificing himself or or the other Sage sacrificing themselves for a lion to feed her Cubs or a lioness I guess to feed her Cubs or of the bird who um carried water for uh a forest fire until it until it couldn't anymore and and its heart gave out but I'm saying like that that level of like Compassion or motivated you know like heart centered action transcended their desire for self-preservation they moved beyond the boundary of continuing on with oneself and so the idea of being vulnerable for them in those moments whether the stories are true or not I don't know you know I'm just saying that like they were able to move beyond that they were able to move Beyond like these very Primal kind of instincts right of keeping myself in a contained in a contained space in order to catch my next breath and then maybe I'll make the the Daniel philosophical leap and say for procreation right or self-preservation I.E the continuing of the genetic line and influence on my Society so yeah that's that was my that was my secret thought underneath the vulnerability description is that it it inherently puts that on top of the thing that we have all as as human beings and why we're able to survive as a species which I realize is important or else it wouldn't be here having this conversation but on the same level like if the if one of the desires of this of this program podcast project whatever we're doing is to illuminate as many of these unconscious processes as possible as many of them as possible I think this one is a very important one it doesn't mean that you should value yourself less no we're talking about boundaries in a second but like to understand that this deep seed the seed of vulnerability that and that we would extend ourselves into a space that's safe is still based on on our own ideas of self-preservation and maybe self-preservation from a societal level is not being embarrassed by crying in front of others you know or not being or authentic authentic selves for fear of being judged and ostracized you know what I'm saying or it could be on a different level of like not exposing to your point are are some mix or our bellies or our chests or whatever to the environment to not be eaten but again it's it's still a self-preservation standpoint and therefore it is important to live to continue to you know be alive right yeah does that make sense I think so but like I think that like it's such it's um it's such a circle that it gets blurred in where you're talking about it from in a way that like when you talk about you know um the self-preservation part for me like there's only ways like in human this is my own personal belief like the end like you're gonna be like stop minimizing yourself but I'm like I'm just a stay-at mom at home mom over here that keeps it acupuncture license like up to date and like it doesn't really like I'm not as like you know I'm gonna say educated and smart as like you and Eric like I don't even know no no no you literally you literally went to school with me so I know I know but what I'm saying is like so for me as long as we are in human form as long as we are stuck in this vessel of Flesh and bone and blood there's always going to be this this desire to override for our own Survival and our own personal interest of course and so for me whenever I think about vulnerability there's this idea of like you know I think we've talked about it in that other book that we're reading together about descending the mountains so you go down into this primal thing you become aware of it you're like you're like oh you're like I recognize that like when I want to protect myself and put my guard up is whenever I'm feeling vulnerable like it's it's a survival mechanism like I am being targeted and so and then and what happens is like you can like determine when you're down there like is it really a threat though like whenever somebody I was just telling you the other night like Tyler my husband he called me stubborn and that word did not sit right with me and immediately made me want to like protect myself because I didn't believe it and I kind of felt like hurt by it and so I had all of this stuff happening inside my body that I was like what but like I'm also smart enough to be like is that really a threat am I about to lose an arm and I'm like no it's actually not a threat I don't need to like really protect myself I don't need to go into like Mama Bear mode and so I think when we can differentiate and we can become aware um you know whenever these protective mechanisms want to like come up and turn on and shut off our vulnerability and we can decide like is it a real threat or could I work past it then we can we can function from our heart which is like a higher place than our survival where I believe that we exist in like just a primal like going through protecting ourselves kind of like wanting to live wanting to procreate like you said it comes from like a like a higher place so sometimes like this is the stuff that I love with and I feel like it bleeds from my acupuncture to my cranial sacral to my yoga classes this idea of like leading from the heart and just like making a higher decision you know and some of that comes from like deciding when I said deciding if you're safe or not is just it's just differentiating like is this a real threat like am I about to like seriously die or is just my ego gonna get hurt and then when you can make that differentiation and be like oh like you know just like my ego or my own like thoughts are about to be threatened and that's not a real threat like there's there's growth there and then you can um exist in a more vulnerable space I feel like my feelings you know no I listen I'm with you so two things you brought up I think one was the idea of protection um first on on protection yes so we have our defense mechanisms come up right and this is the at this point right now I believe this to be the ego the the are our the personality same which people call ego and they're like oh ego bad I gotta kill it you know no that's your personality you're gonna kill your personality who are you going to be then like some NPC you know what I'm saying like no it's not however your personality is influenced by all of your defense mechanisms that you have learned over the years that you have acquired over the years that that have developed you know as the years have gone on one level on an interpersonal level but then on a societal level like yes there should be some amount of like awareness of your surroundings and feeling like you might have to be on guard if you're living in an area which you know I you did probably when you were well at different points through your life you know people are following you around and you know living in not so good spots and you know I we have a worldwide you know listenership here and so I don't know where people are at you know in terms of like their physical surroundings so I have to be cognizant of that too like that's a realistic thing but then at what level like at what point whether someone is physically threatening you or it's a perceived threat you know verbally which could totally have real feelings too you know how much how much of our defenses get put up and then when do we lower those defenses though right do we always walk around with our defenses up are we are we unable to greet another human being with a smile because we think that that will be not enough protection there was a um there was a book I was reading recently and the guy was some guy from Baltimore was being interviewed I'm not picking up Baltimore that's just where the guy was from you know he grew up there he's an author and I forgot his name and I you know I apologize to him but uh he was like when I was growing up there was a very fine line of being too violent or not violent enough as it means for survival so there's this other kind of like deeper part right where like some people are in certain situations where they have to defend themselves in order to continue you know their existence which is you know what we're talking about at this point but then not being so not doing so much that you go to jail but not doing nothing so that you know you're in some environment where you get picked on constantly and that's this idea I think of of boundaries and I it kind of hit me in it when you were talking like being an art being an artist is a kind of a boundary for your vulner like like your vulnerability like your person has a creative kind of individual is is like your own little boundary like I'm an artist I'm not inherently meaning I'm not violent and I guess I'm talking more about like like you know the harder Arts you know like painting and you know sculpting or whatever I guess you know there's plenty people talk about like you know more like hip-hop and things like this they're artists but they're totally like you know some of them are definitely you know going to jail for various reasons you know what I'm saying um but yeah so that that's that's kind of what I wanted to to add to your point I feel like I feel like I feel like I have what I want to say and you're helping me say it like that's what I that's all good coming to your to your point of what you're saying I think there's a lot of fine lines and everything like that's why you know I don't like you know I like these ideas and these Concepts that I have like they're not foolproof there's not that there's not any other way to get to them you know and it's that like um it is a fine line sometimes I imagine it like hold like and I've told you about this like picture or this image before but it's like the idea of holding um water in your hand like there has to be a certain amount of tension to squeeze the fingers together to Cup and hold the water but the minute you squeeze too tight or you get too loose in the you know there's no like the boundaries of the fingers aren't touching you you lose the water you know so there's this like perfect balance of like the the perfect line the perfect tension the perfect boundary of that you know a close fist is too much a wide Palm is is too far you know yeah and so um I think about it like that so it's definitely situational you know like when we you like you're talking about safety or whatever it's like can people that live in unsafe name neighborhoods that like have threats all around them ever feel safe you know like that's something that like I can't tell I mean I have lived in kind of sketched neighborhoods before but I couldn't answer fully I don't have lives of some people like that you know um I think it's possible um but like I can't say for sure you so it's it's situational but I think that like these are you know these are tools these are these are Pathways and then like if you if you're if you want to hop on the pathway and find it or you think that it would be good for you you have you have to walk the path you know you have to find your way it's a personal thing for everybody you know because everybody's traumas everybody's experiences everybody's ego stories that they have in their head are different it's a different negotiation system it's a different you know my boundaries are going to be different than your boundaries are going to be different than you know some of the people's listening boundaries you know it's very personal yeah so the way I look at it is at like you know essentially our boundaries are our like our our defensive lines and this sometimes defense doesn't always mean offense defense can just simply mean no right you know just a a clear line around us but that it's kind of like a you know like a dimmer switch and that if the boundary is all the way up then you are exposing zero percent vulnerability at that time boundaries all the way down you're exposing a hundred percent vulnerability and you have this dial that gets turned higher and lower based on your situation so when you're around your family it's way down you know when you're around somebody you feel very intimate with it's even lower when you're and I think that you're like you're saying yeah and you were saying like and I think it does switch all day long and you're saying it takes practice to have that awareness like to be able to tune into that dial and know it exists at multiple levels and then to be able to judge the situation and like what your body is saying and then be able to appropriately tone the dial in and um and so I I do think that like you know there's a there's a level of awareness and a level of practice that happens to be able to you you know make that make that appropriate dial in so and and then the and I guess like the the philosophical standpoint is that like our work you know is to be able to extend you know in relatively extend that sort of I don't know if I want to call it vulnerability but I'll say openness to everyone to every to everybody and it's not that I have to walk up to you open my vulnerability meter and then close it walk away then do it to the next person it's a feeling you know it's a feeling that like this person is not a combatant right even if they're of course combating me I'm going to protect myself but like that that you could sense the humanity you can sense that the or even the larger point the soul the the being inside of that person they're not just simply Skin and Bones who are a threat to my existence a threat to my vulnerability yeah I I don't know if you remember when we were in school together but we had this class I think separately but um it was like I think the clinical counseling class and one of the exercises that we had to do was to make a list and we had to think of three people that we um and the three people and then like a tendency that they had that like really like repulsed us or annoyed us like really got under our skin and then we had to make a separate list of three people and maybe it was the same people maybe they had like admirable qualities and like repulsive qualities but then like three qualities that like we could really relate to or that like we admired so much and then kind of the exercise at the end when you had these like six people in these six qualities was to be able to look at it and and see if you could like honestly say that you saw those qualities all of them the repulsive ones and the admirable ones in yourself and they're the same the same ones that you maybe like made you hate yourself and made you love yourself in a way and so um in general the nervous system has an like the the cardiovascular system and the Brain they both have electromagnetic fields to them so I think there's this like um this this electricity between human beings that we can't really see that's maybe not palpable to like um some like some people maybe it is but in general I think there's this connectivityness and when nervous systems get around each other they are secretly talking and so we you know and sometimes you'll feel that like you know it's like without even talking you can get close to someone and kind of like you don't want to judge a book by its cover but you can kind of tell like oh I like their Vibe or like like this Vibe is going to go really well with me or like you can just like two wrong notes hitting and around wrong wrong you know and so um but I think about that all the time whenever I encounter people that like all of a sudden I'm hearing the two different notes or whatever um I think that everybody there's likeness and similarities where like there's a the humanity like there's they're this sameness in in all of us of some level and so I'm always looking for that connective piece because if I can see myself and the other person or the other person in me then it does make me a little more a little more vulnerable it makes me want to understand like what about this does not you know and like obviously if someone has like a knife in front of you and it's a very serious like it's totally different if I'm saying in general like you know you're just out and about and your friend introduced you someone or you're just meeting a stranger off the street that seems nice and you're chatting like um I'm always very curious about that you know because I do think that like there's um you know there's so much to be learned and I do um I always try to think that like there's a greater good in humanity and um and that's that's how I try to walk in vulnerability but also like using like my spider senses to determine like do I need to draw a boundary here right you know like um and so and that's important and that's like we were talking about tuning into that dial and saying like Okay like I've set my dial for this particular situation and as the conversation flows or as the relationship kind of navigates or grows or whatever then I can adjust the dial and I think that's why you're saying relationships like it's even lower than our family because like you know you take on living with your partner and you get in these spaces that like allow for more vulnerability by the experience and the just the surrounding um being around these people you know for a longer time so and this is all assuming that like you have good connection with your sense of vulnerability number one yes and that like there and that if you're questioning you know kind of like who are you who are the deeper parts of yourself so people who have you know if they're I don't want to say hiding something but they're working on aspects of their identity whether that be sexual related or personality related or you know just like lifestyle choices you know not even necessarily dealing with sexual stuff just different than their culture not wanting to expose that to their own little you know Sangha their own little Community you know that it becomes harder because then Everything feels like they're on they're they're on more defensive mode you know yeah being a woman for sure you know in a definitely a male dominated kind of society being physically vulnerable literally being physically vulnerable like less strong than another physical person you know um all changes these things and causes us to have our guard up AKA our boundaries and so I wanted to kind of like you know move along a little bit with our conversation here I wanted to acknowledge the different level the different layers where people are at first that's why I said what I said I'm not you know ignorant to the to the stripes of different people in their in their life in their lives and their life choices and the things that they're working through which would cause their boundaries to be up right and the economic stresses and things like this that would just keep them in a more keep their boundaries higher essentially you know so they're in a little bit more of a reactive state but the reaction that's their choice the reaction is their choice okay go sorry I just had like a light bulb come on in my brain sure that's good sometimes they do that I know well you're well because I feel like before we when like our little pow-wow before this you're talking about vulnerability and boundaries being in and young and I didn't agree with you because I was like uh I don't know if I agree with that but like literally I was just thinking I was like man I was like you know boundaries make you safe but also like No Boundaries make you feel safe too like in a way of like you know uh sometimes like boundaries I think like of labeling something or creating like an edge of something and like that feels good to like know where those boundaries are but then sometimes like boundaries like boundaries in my head kind of get lumped in with like labeling something and like the minute you start labeling something like that can feel unsafe to people because it's like oh I'm gonna be judged like this is a habit that I have that could be looked down upon and so there's a threat there so like sometimes having no boundaries like this unconditional yielding love which I think is very vulnerability sits and so I'm agreeing with you now yeah yeah I mean in a relative in a relative sense we do like boundaries we live in a house that's a boundary from the outside world yeah but I believe unconditional love is like the ultimate thing that like you could be after in this lifetime and I agree that and I believe that unconditional love doesn't have boundaries like it doesn't it's not defined by anything it does right you know we've talked about this all the time but that's like a really it's yeah it's it's it's yes I guess in one level in one sense you're right on a societal level you have the boundary of a house and hopefully you love the people you love the beings inside of that house the goal is to not love only your children but to love all children yeah and to not only love your dog but to love dogs you know I'm saying just in general like my teacher Andre would be like oh you love your wife why don't you love all wives why so selfish you know but that's that's the you know but so the idea then of having a boundary is needed because a we are working through our own things as they are right and so we need a respite as you said like we're magnetic beings so we are sort of engaging in the environment around us and you do need a sense of safety in Life or else you're always on edge you're in essentially a fight or flight kind of um kind of existence where you want to do one or the other and you know maybe it's not so extreme maybe it's like irritability or coldness which we could all have experienced based on our various customer service experiences in life you know where you have that person who's like totally irritable and you're like man you must be having a bad day or the people where you go somewhere and you buy something you're like can you acknowledge the fact that I just spent money in this place like hello you know what I'm saying like I earned that like but they're they're you know but so that that's their level of reactivity but that like having your own sense of boundary can create a respite for yourself can can create like a a sanctuary in a sense that you can go and and do your own recharge large kind of thing but then also that you know where um where other people's things stop and your things start in a sense so you have like this two opposing forces one is that like your the drive is to overcome uh not overcome diversity but overcome like dire diametric ideology and that like there is you and me and feeling connectivity but then also knowing that we are not the same and that I do have my own sense of energy you have your own sense of energy and we have to find the boundaries that come in between this and I was talking with the patient earlier today and she has a couple kids and and um you know she's married and there's all different kinds of Dynamics but she is always like you said sort of expanding out to her environment and wanting to be the people pleaser which I think is far more of a a trait that women carry more than men I'm not saying no men carrying it but I'm saying I think it's far it's more nurturing in that sense but it can be draining and she says she feels like burnt out and she needs time to like recharge but then she feels bad like almost like she's abandoning her duties as a mother and as a wife going and taking you know a half hour for herself to do whatever because that feels better I feel like this is really common and it's not talked about which is a real big shame because I feel like a lot of like I'm a mother of two toddlers And I mean I feel the same way literally feel like I'm failing every day tired like I'm just you know can't find a little pocket constantly have a list of three things and having to give up one of them like is it like I you know I can eat and shower or I can like you know eat and sleep or I can like sleep and shower but I'm like what something's not making the list you know and it's just like running every single day like that feeling like you have to give up just like basic needs of some sort um can be really draining sometimes you know and then like I love doing this stuff with you I love you know I I have like um a small practice I stepped in that I like to see other people like there are things that fill me up in my life you know and that I still want want to do but like at the end of the day there's usually two things you know several things that I've sacrificed on my list and some of them are just like basic need things that like and I feel like a lot of women are in that position because you know um I don't you know it's like it's like what do they say like I just read a quote the other day on on Facebook that someone can had had reposted from like another person and another person it was like this world isn't made for a working mom and it's not made for a single income family and it's like it's true and I feel like you know there's so many women in that position you know and just it's not I just want to like acknowledge it and say it and um you know that it's not um you know it's everywhere and people I don't think talk about it but it exists and so this idea then of like of having boundaries is an important one right and it's not to increase the sense of divisiveness between people but the way that I look at boundaries is like a measure of your own and a measure of your own Integrity a measure of your own energy a measure of your own output where where you are and and how much are you willing to expand that boundary and what is the cost of that expansion and how much are you yeah how are you finding that personal boundary and how do you how are you knowing how to navigate it right and then we'll once we'll go there in a second and then you know and and how how you know when when you when you collapse that boundary you know what is the cost of that now those are those are two questions but to your point how can you answer either one if you're not aware of your own sense of being essentially right your own beingness and this comes from you know no surprise to anybody who's listened to us for any length of time you know time spent in internal reflection or I don't like to use the word contemplation but you know we'll say meditation something like this you know that you get a chance to a do some physiological thing like have your nervous system sort of be on a little bit more of an even Keel have a starting point where you're like okay this is with calm and relaxed feels like now this is this varies from person to person and depending on how long you've practiced or if you've ever practiced or whatever but I think this is such an important part because without that how how can you know the cost of expanding your boundary how do you know when you need to rein it in a little bit so that you can reserve some energy you know so that you can be a better mother a better customer service representative you know a better you know whatever police officer bus driver or you know student teacher whatever you know and without that without that inquiry on yourself I don't know how well you're able to answer that question actually you know and so then I think I think what ends up happening is that the boundaries just become more calloused they become thicker and thicker and the people who are on the inner circle become increasingly less and those the only people you feel like you can have boundaries with only until you meet the few small people who are able to make their way through this semi-permeable membrane you know what I'm saying can I add something to that yeah please I also think that like you know that everything you're saying is true but I also think what happens when people aren't spending time in internal reflection and like knowing where these boundaries are like the repercussions and the breakdown also can turn up in like physical mental and emotional distress you know what I'm saying and so like it's important because like yeah not only are you affecting the Dynamics of where those boundaries are and the thickness of that membrane or that barrier that you're talking about and the people in and out of it but it's a it's gonna it's gonna start attacking you personally like you know you you basically start becoming disconnected from your own body basically I feel like you know like which is very weird because like our body literally has a skin boundary like we are a contained situation whether you want to believe that spirit is in this thing or not the skin contains bones organs fluids full functioning so there's a boundary there's like literally like the life of us depends on this boundary and whenever all of a sudden you start taking on things or you don't realize or accept that you have boundaries and then know what they are for yourself is a specific human there is a breakdown you get disconnected from your body and I think that like you know um in as acupuncturists we see a lot of people they come in with like this these pains in their body they're like you know the headaches things that they're not sure digestive issues and they have no clue and you start talking to them and you see that they're so detached from their body because they've gone on this like you know they're just working and plowing away and they're just doing these things and they're in this mode and they're um they're slightly disconnected from that internal that internal reflection mechanism they don't know where their own boundaries are um as a personal like kind of checklist essentially and you and you see it turn up in that way too I just want to add that yeah maybe you don't no I know I not that completely that's the that's the practitioner speaking right there you know and so then you know how is it then you know so spending time in internal reflection is a way in which to kind of set your your set point your point zero yeah and then you can then have a sense of like okay what is affecting it how is affecting it what do I do what do I need to do to recharge you know what does that look like how long does that take you know is it days is it weeks is it minutes is it you know whatever what a flex it bless you yeah thank you and so then you know I want and I wanted to sort of like cap off this conversation with the idea of of like you know New Age spiritual lingo holding space technically right now I am Holdings so I got my hand turned up right like a cup uh for those who are on the audio version right that's technically holding space but that's not what I'm referencing we've been holding space for each other for almost an hour now on the zoom call correct holding space for other people right now maybe hopefully or they're holding space for us but so this idea of holding space for somebody all right we'll use it in a very sort of a uh a general term somebody has a rough day maybe your partner maybe your friend family member whomever and you have them over to talk or you call them on the phone and you chat and you're listening you provide them with the opportunity to express themselves you listen compassionately perhaps you give some feedback maybe not but they are able to um Express their vulnerabilities or their feelings or whatever it is that they have it's probably vulnerabilities the places in which they felt you know whatever in a in a non-judgmental or at least not outwardly judgmental place with somebody who was compassionately there for them supporting them that's quote-unquote holding space holding the space for someone to share holding the space for someone to be right and I think microcosmin macrocosm and then I'm gonna I'm right and then I did what I did for today you know on a on a personal level you can enter personal level intro personal level you do with other people right with your kids your partners whatever and you provide whatever they need in that moment on a intra per interpersonal level for yourself I believe that those moments of respite are you holding space for yourself and the the practice of holding space for yourself gives you the opportunity to be whoever it is that you are to be however it is that you are in your own state right when those moments arise and to do that more frequently than not is very beneficial for I believe your mind and your heart but then on a macro level the idea of having faith in something I'm not going to say what but it's kind of like having the the sense of safety or openness or trust or faith that that being or thing or person or whatever is holding space for your entire life basically and all of reality surrounding it which just came to me as we're talking and it's like such a profound way to describe Faith to me in my you know weird brain you know but like then I think if that if that's my container you know if that is the place that that's who's holding space for me then the idea of being vulnerable takes on a little bit of a different a different meaning than just simply showing my naughty bits to my only fans hahaha [Laughter] oh you all you do that why are you ruining such a really nice thing you gotta you like you're like you're like oh I'm taking myself too seriously I said something too smart let me ruin it with a weird joke I literally think having them across the sound from you I smacked you right now no but like I think you I think you're on do I have a minute to like contribute to that or go ahead I just want to say like you know um I really love what you were saying about like the on the maybe it was the micro level about like um you know holding space for someone else or holding space for yourself and I think that's so important because I think that like often um you know to know where your boundary is to know like what like what did you wake up with with today and what do you have to give and what can you take on like already you know I think our own personal boundary for me my own personal boundary fluctuates sometimes I can do a lot and I can commit to a lot and then sometimes I have to limit myself and know that I need to recharge or that I need to do things and um I call it um I don't want to cuss on here but I'm not eating crap I'm like you know like some days like you know with with my partner like you know I can tell he's having a bad day or he needs a little extra support or whatever and you know I can like I can gauge myself and if I like if I have you know if I can gauge myself when we're both having bad days but I feel like I have a better reserve to take care of someone or to do something and I can be honest with myself and do it out of an acknowledgment of awareness not do it and overextend myself and be bitter about it later if I can honestly say like they had a worse day than me and I know that whenever the shoot the the shoes on the other foot and I'm worse off than them that they're going to step up and do it like you know so it it goes back and forth about being able to sometimes like yeah sometimes you're not really in a position to to hold space for someone else like because you've had a bad day too but I think that like what you said about on the macrocosm leaning in knowing that something bigger has me that I can like function from a higher place and make that decision um it allows me to show up and it always comes back like um it always comes back tenfold I feel like every time I hit that spot and I do that like I just kind of want to go back to the part in the conversation when I was talking about Tyler calling me stubborn the other night because it was like it was probably around midnight and like we're laying in bed and I don't know like you know that time of night I don't know if other women can relate but like sometimes you get a little crazy like women get a little bit crazy like it gets late at night and like one thing goes wrong and like you're just like oh it can like set you off sometimes you're like manic crazy wanna just like pick a fight for an hour and a half and so I realized that like this word like really like made me angry I was like because I don't believe that about myself but then like I was like I was like I took I was able to take a moment because I do you know you and I have a meditation practice together and we do lots of um ceremonies and we do a lot of work in this I feel like reflective space and this reflective space has helped me personally I was able to like stop this anger and be like actually I'm not really angry my feelings just got really hurt because I don't believe that about myself and I'm like but I'm open to hearing why this person that lives with me that sees me probably the rawest and like you know all the time in all my ways would say that about me you know and so like there was this moment I realized that I was hurt and because I could recognize I was hurt I was like I have tools to talk about this but then there was also that part of me was like but do I really want to use him right now and I was like totally just like debating I'm like do I pick up my tool and do this work from a higher place and be kind and like talk about my vulnerability and like my hurtness or do I just like Slaughter this person for an hour and a half and make them feel so terrible for hurting my feelings and you know what and whenever I was able to talk about it and be in a vulnerable space like I really did relate to that like higher thing you know I was like man that felt so good to be to be able to be nice and kind you know and for me like that's whenever you talk about the higher thing for me like I believe niceness and kindness is we need more of it in this world you know and that's where the vulnerability comes from but it doesn't mean you have to go around like a bleeding heart extending yourself and running yourself ragged like a martyr you know you also really have to take care of yourself and make sure that you know um you're doing the same for yourself that you are for others like if you're going to hold yourself to the standard do do it for everybody else you definitely need to make sure you're on the list you know I agree I agree yeah no that's uh that's a good way of making something personal relatable so thank you for for um or do it for doing it and I'm gonna you know leave everybody with the with the quote from uh the book that I was talking about the the myth of uh the myth of normal uh by Dr governorate that we talked about in the last episode um this is not a quote from him but it's a quote from an interview in the book um uh and someone said uh it's possible to accept life or is it it's possible to accept life for what it is and gain the authority to search for our own truth in all situations and have the agency to choose our own response to whatever occurs and I and I do hope that I do I do believe that that is something worth striving for to be able to accept life for what it is and gain the authority to search for you know who it is and who you are in every situation and then to be able to respond accordingly in a way that you want to just like what you had said you know um from from the higher place and and to be able to choose your reaction and if and if sometimes there is some Justified anger that somebody needs in something then you can do that and not be identified with that anger for uh minutes hours days weeks months it doesn't become all of your person you know no for sure because I think that that's you know you know that's like the hard part is like finding your own authentic reaction to something and and not having it come from a conditioned place um this is this is authenticity you know which we talk about you know a lot on here so anyways um as always my friend thank you for for coming on and joining us uh as always there are never well not never but there are rarely clear answers you know it has to how to do or not do things but you know really the the hope the intention of the desire is to illuminate some of these aspects of ourselves that we're we're living on a daily basis that are existing whether or not we're paying attention to them and um you know to be able to get people to think about them and how it is that they might you know not necessarily improve but at least reflect upon these things so that they can make the choices that are beneficial to themselves the people around them and and ultimately into the world yeah yeah greatly perfect 100 a plus plus oh great well Priscilla thank you so much for coming on as always you know uh people who've been here forever and a day I definitely appreciate it we are you know approaching our three-year Mark as doing this and you know for people who whether you're new or you've you know been been listening for a while I appreciate it um you know we're broadcasting from the from Chicago Illinois in the United States but we have people you know all over the world and so you know from wherever you're at you know I wish you well and thank you for for tuning in if you like our work or you don't like our work whatever share uh that always helps we love constructive criticism yeah no doubt and and for and for such constructive criticism or you know even nice words uh feel free to hit us up at gin and Tantra gmail.com or you can leave a link in the YouTube section uh our link or comment in a YouTube section subscribe like all that other Jazz you um yeah for Priscilla and for Eric Who's In Absentia this is Daniel we'll catch you guys in the next one bye guys