[Music] hey PG and tears those of us like our spirituality with a Twist so we're doing uh this is a 2025 our first 2025 recording Daniel booah and we wanted to be the year of talking about Karma mudra using sexuality intimacy love and passion and desire in the spiritual path that's the goal that's how we ended up 24 talking about and we just said what the hate 2025 just going to continue the same [...] that's right we are we are in it we and we're going even deeper yes deeper oh wait a minute that was a that was a interesting choice for certain sauciness to every every word now Tak many layers of meaning just the way there the contrast yes say that every word has multiple layers of meaning correct um also kind of thing that we want to do we have our g&t Retreat coming up that's supposed to be kind of an introduction to Tantra yes fits into what we're trying to do in March so people who are interested in that I I guess we can legitimately say seats are filling up fast occupation occupation possibilities are ending so correct however we will be we will we will be you know based on uh kind of an idea that was given to me by a listener so uh thank you sir because you know who you are um we will be offering it online so for interested people will make it available uh all the sessions will be made available uh online simultaneously so not only will you have access to it live but then you also have access to the recordings um so thanks for the good idea to our special listener and for anybody who's interested obviously um if you know us personally hit us up we'll give you the information the signups and all this uh but otherwise feel free to you know leave a message on the YouTube videos if you're watching it on YouTube uh if you're listening to it uh you can email us at Jin and Tantra gmail.com or uh feel free to to slide in our DMS at the gin and Tantra podcast on Instagram so any one of those ways you want to get a hold of us uh we we'll Loop you in and you can you know you can join uh at your leisure yeah and we have like the idea of just sort of helping people get the ball rolling in terms of these tantric things right yep yeah all right on that note we're going to do this little bit of episodes that we got going on this one there may be a couple coming up on attachment Theory kind of the eastern and the western side of this um it's I think it's always kind of fun when we once one of the things we try to do that maybe is a little unique is to kind of mix in some of the West the the Western psychological stuff in with the Eastern tantric stuff you know um it fits kind of our background as being clinicians too you know so some of the Chinese medicine things we do and some of the other clinical stuff we do so we r a little bit on attachment Theory which is uh you know kind of a big deal psychological theory but before we do that we're going to do the preliminary for it which is a little bit more of the Eastern take of how to think about it attachment from different points of view and it's so relevant because you know you're not going to be able to do any of these practices unless you somehow address attachments right one way or the other how you feel about that internally within yourself if you're doing just the meditative aspect or if you're working with a partner obviously attachment and how you feel about attachment with people is going to play in that too so you know seemed like a good idea so we're we're rolling with it definitely all right Daniel was like hitting the books on it I'm hitting the books on it yeah we are we are we we are studying it's it's it's legit I mean we're always reading things but right now I think this is probably the first time that we have been multiple books deep on a subject like this we've we've done single books before but this is multiple books over a long period on this particular topic and related topics so it's good and it's really funny because we spent a lot of time talking about other stuff before we really got to like the sexual yogas and the karma mudra you know we wanted to like build up the whole thing and you know now we're here I mean but isn't is for play is over that's it you know right the forl isn't that a great romance though you know you kind of you know you spend slow build you spend some time getting to know you know who you're working with and how they think and you know then uh yeah then you get to know how they makes it a smoother ride yeah that's right um all right so Eastern side of attachment right and I wanted to do this a little bit based on you know one of the people we've been been trying to share Dr Nida you know great doctor tantric practitioner um so we've been kind of trying to use him as a little bit of a conversation starter that's a typical thing to do in the tantric world right in the Buddhist world you take something as sort of a conversation starter Source text you sort of comment so I wanted to like kind of share a little bit here um and I'm really interested in your thoughts Daniel because you know we'll look at how they think about attachment in sort of the the suric Buddhist tradition and we'll talk about what that is in a little bit and the more tantric side of things um but I had like a general question in mind which is like you know maybe we'll think about it as we go through it and then like double back it on the end but like what do people in the west think about Buddhism or spirituality and attachment just in general you know and I I have to admit like in for me in writing my side of these notes up I was like I don't know what people think about this but I do get some idea that people think about spirituality being like nonattachment I think that sort of has disseminated through American culture on some level do you sort of agree with that I agree yeah yeah spirituality or yeah spirituality Buddhist stuff there's a kind of a non-attachment Vibe so I would say yeah this is this could be an entire episode right here yeah but okay so Buddhism I don't think that there is any it's a religion it's not I don't believe that it's viewed as a practice I believe it's viewed as a religion okay now just because that's the case doesn't mean that people don't take things from Buddhism that they like okay just like they would from other Traditions but I think Buddhism seems to be well doesn't seem to be it is non- judeo-christian thereby it's far enough away that you could pull things from it Without Really upsetting the Apple C from anybody in your family oh I heard this Buddhist guy this monk talk and no one's going to be like oh those rotten you know whatever they're like I don't know anything about it and he's a monk so probably like a priest or something and what did he say oh he should be compassionate okay that's cool so that's that's Buddhism that's what people think of Buddhism um other words that are important I think in terms of the the language of today is the mindfulness I think people will associate that with Buddhism or Zen but they don't really understand what Zen is they just think of like things that are clean you know and like simple like that's very Zen I want to be very Zen okay Simplicity maybe or something like that yeah there you go Simplicity right yeah yeah so so this thing of mindfulness I think they associate with that but then in terms of spirituality I think that there's a couple ideas of spirituality and I and I and I'll hear what you want to think and and audience please you know hit us up because this these are these are deep kind of ideas because I think you and I Eric and actually many people would identify themselves as spiritual they may not say I'm a Christian or I'm a Catholic or I'm a agnostic or Jewish or whatever they would probably say they're spiritual which means that they believe in my opinion of something that goes beyond the ordinary but maybe not quite sure what that might be and that's that's the spiritual Vibe okay that's the spiritual Vibe on one Sense on the other sense spiritual also I believe means to be holy means to be an an aesthetic means to be and for those who don't know that term means like monk like a renunciate you might say runci exactly exactly so you know I mean I was out I was in visiting California this past week over New Year's friends family things like this and uh you know we're out doing our thing and someone was you know we were I was talking about this kind of tantric stuff that I've been that we've been going into that I've been reading about books that you've shared with me and and you that I've read on my own and um and she was like man this seems like you just she's like typical guy just talking about sex all the time I was like oh man it's not that's literally you know and she's like I thought you were spiritual and I was like oh this is it right here but like that moment brought up for me the Divide between what what is viewed externally as quote unquote spiritual and the practice of something that is spiritual and so I had to tell her I was like spirituality doesn't have a Dogma associated with it so you can be spiritual and and still do different things so for example and Eric you know this but educate the audience a little bit that there are tantric practices in which the monks who attain high levels of meditation are encouraged to go into the world of the mundane people and get drunk hook up with women potentially you know take drugs like it's it it that is not that is part of the practice you but on the outside we would go wait a minute I thought they were spiritual and you're like what do you mean by spiritual if you mean by renunciate you don't have to be spiritual to be a renunciate you know those are called in cells you're not gonna be like the spiritual guy on forchan just bitching about everything right that's it um yeah I mean part it has to do with like questions of like Purity too yeah oh for sure yeah and the idea that like even like the reaction of your family member or friend I'm not sure who it was but oh you're just you're just being a bro and you want to talk about sex and you're trying to mix it in with your yes your quote unquote spirituality or something but you know um yeah we come up in some other episodes too but you know the whole idea is like you you everything is pure at the ground level even those things that you wouldn't think of when you get to the core of what they are you know so you kind of push that boundary of what constitutes Purity but it happens in a lot of old tantas you know sometimes it's people doing mundane work like uh famous story of one of the tantric Masters who was just like squeezing the SES sesame seed oils out of the seeds just doing mundane work you know yeah you know he was advised to do that so he could kind of do something that was a little bit humbling you know he's working on his humility but that's kind of like everyday [...] right and then some of the stuff is like you know like the same same character you know he had to work as a dormant in the brothel or something right you know just go around the world and have different experiences yes and like you if he's I don't know what I don't know what people would say that you're work under the dormant at the broel that's a spiritual practice but yeah that's what it is around the places where there's Sexual Energy and people in all kinds of heightened emotional states and what that's like we did a crazy episode back in the day where we just talked about like you know going to like a strip teas bar in Chicago right yes I was a little nervous talking about it but you know it was one of the pieces of advice you know I never went to a strip club in my life but you know I said hey Dan you want to do this tantric exercise with me Daniel was like uh yeah that sounds good uhuh and it was very interesting you know so you know be in that kind of sexually charged Place yeah we should do it again yeah not how many years has it been that was very interesting and the person that we met there was you know studying all this spiritual stuff it was just sort of like one of those tantric events you know one of the ladies there was really into studying uh like um psychic powers and she was in an Institute in Chicago where they were studying those things and and she had all kinds of interestes in spiritual stuff and we just like like basically like shot the ship for like 45 minutes or something that was the that was the event I was like I wasn't totally comfortable when that episode came out because I was like you know but since then we' talked about so much crap doesn't matter yeah exactly yeah at that point that was just that seems like n mundane so Eric let me ask let let me because I feel like we you know this episode's going to be a little bit shorter but I I like this question as a you know as a premise um what do you consider so okay two two parter what would you consider yourself if someone was going to ask you and then then then and I'll do the same um what do you consider spir a spiritual life or or being a spiritual minded individual because I am beginning to not love that term I am ly wanting to find a different term um one that is also understood by many people so it's a difficult task uh but so let me let me let me hear yours and then then I'll do those are the craziest Daniel questions I've ever because they're impossible answer but I'm gonna give it a tumble yeah they're asked in sincerity obviously yeah so okay so I mean what constitutes a spiritual life I think I wrestled with this you know different parts of my own personal story with this you know I started like probably really thinking about this when I started studying Zen which was in like my early to mid 20s and I think like what that meant kind of like built over time for me now I guess I'm comfortable considering myself something like a tantrica you know I'm comfortable with that kind of uh you know if you have to put like an answer to a question how would you think of yourself yeah for me though I frame that pretty broad where I would still consider the things I learned from Zen to be part of that same story you know know and there's feeling things that I feel like I really learned in doing that from that time in my life that was very important that intense period of study or you know I love certain aspects of like roomie and you know Sufi thought and I would say those things kind of fit into my picture of what sort of constitutes my own spiritual life right yeah and some cabalistic things I learned and you know so I you know we had our old school intro which was listing all these things that we're into and like I that was kind of purposely chosen because those things I think have built up each of us in our own ways who we feel that we are right so some kind of combination of those things kind of like coming together alchemically popping you know have becomes to me what I think the spiritual life kind of is and I think you know um for me I guess the goal has been to sort of write my own stages of the path so there's this whole idea of the stages of the path in the Tibetan Buddhist world and you kind of like Trace how a person will kind of develop over time and the different things they might study and realize and I thought I love that thing I learned it from g rache and an arbor you know the first person to really making me seriously learn that great toet and Guru and thank you R so much it's emotional um because it was you know he was so such an important figure you know like llama Glenn you know Glenn Mullen you know just people who are really core of who you are D Lama as well but you know um so I was I was taking on that Tibetan thing but I also have tried to like put my own things in there you know so as an example related to our subject matter I was really moved a lot by how roomie thinks about love and connection yeah and Alchemy between people so for me that became part of my own personal lomm yeah know and like including those other things so you know I think that maybe that answers the question hopefully it does in part right and it's been really trying to take I've had great experiences with great spiritual teachers there's just no doubt that that's the case yeah know Zen people dais people uh Buddhist tantric people you know and other spiritual teachers too and I I've tried to like kind of meld those together to be kind of the Melting Pot of my life which I'm okay calling Tantra but recognizing that there's like lots of things in my Tantra is that okay as an answer I mean yeah so yeah I think what I could if I'm G to summarize a little bit is that like you know for you you kind kind of identif at this point you would identify yourself as a tantric practitioner yeah and and leading a spiritual existence and in that you know in that spiritual existence or that spiritual life it is it is in it is encompassing of all of the teachings and teachers that you have had from various Traditions that have led you to the path that you are on currently and the path that you are on currently is also has has arisen because of the experience that experiences that and learnings and and and you know whatever that you have had up until this point from those various things so this is a kind of like the peak of where you're at at this particular point I think like I've been doing this Buddhist Tantra stuff for like 17 years now give or take yeah yeah so I'm I'm decent way you knew it um but I was also studying things you know before then 14 years or something like that whatever it is um and I think what happened for me was the what we tried to talk about here this like stages of the pathing became kind of like the through line through yeah and then it was okay just to add the other things to see where they fit even like you know we do a lot of psychology and like we're going to talk about attachment Theory and one of my goals and doing that to share with people but also personally to figure out like okay where do I think this fits m MH you know in an overall story of a spiritual life mine but maybe things that can be applicable for other people too yeah yeah all right so what's your answer to it you po kind of a a deep question yeah no for sure so I would say that how would I identify myself this is tough because I regularly say I never call myself a shaman and I don't and I and that that word again language is important and I think that word is very charged uh but I in the sake of being spiritual will do the opposite of what I say and then I will say that I you know I'm a I'm a shamanic practitioner okay so that's one which but that again that includes the tantric practice you know of includ all those things right so that's on one hand and you know what what constitutes for me a spiritual life is much like how you said and and it's interesting we're going to say very similar things but you just you labeled all the pieces that you experienced as the summation of where you are now and that's exactly what I'm what I was thinking about before I asked you that question is that like leading a spiritual life at some point like how you did is intentionally or consciously weaving together all of the things that you've learned whether it be related or unrelated to what we would call quote unquote spirituality to your own learning of a a larger outside of the mundane sense and not necessarily to leave you know it's not a it's not a a I'm not building a rocket ship to leave the thing I'm building my own sort of Integrative machine that can then you know assimilate digest all of the pieces of life and which includes a spiritual life and put them as fod for my own alchemical fire for transformation ultimately for Transcendence and Enlightenment but to take all of them and do that this to me is the spiritual life and that might not necessarily be within the uh I'm not going to say confines but I'll I'll say within the boundaries of Buddhist or Christian or Muslim of course I have to include everybody you know because that's just right you know family and friends right exactly but it is to say that it also transcends those lines spirituality transcends those lines just like how you were talking about you took pieces from cabala you know or or you know thread thread lines through cabala and through Zen that all of which have influenced your practice currently but that you you you know retroactively and proactively said these are my stages on my on you know towards my performance you know on my path these are the these are the landing blocks you know that I have experienced and that will continue to experience but that you are aware of them as part of that you know fod for that fire you know what I'm saying and for me the spiritual life is not related or unrelated to anything it's actually all encompassing but it's again and this is how you know we're tantric practitioners because it is not what you do but how you do it and so in the process of living and uh uh a life that is has a desire to be more connected then you look at everything as a means of connection and thereby try and and Infuse that into yourself and yourself into that and the ways in which you do it are going to vary based on your own you know particular religious or cultural background or and your experience you know as as in our case but ultimately you're trying to do the same thing right which is you know I guess leave the confines of the small identified self as a name and a being and an address at this particular time and merge with the you know capital I or capital S you know Soul if you will you know what I'm saying is that does that Vibe does that make sense and so this is the idea for me this is the idea of a spiritual life and it is far more uh Transcendent and encompassing than I think people believe believe it to be because I think it's just kind of like a deao religion uh that just doesn't have any Dogma Associated but they believe in something else um but I don't know how deeply people actually ask themselves that question what is a spiritual life like you don't believe in religion but you believe in something else that exists so therefore you're spiritual but it is you know they call this a diagnosis of exclusion in medicine right they can't figure it out so they go okay that's it's idio idiopathic but that's not really that's not really a diagnosis that's just a diagnosis of exclusion and so for me spirituality is a diagnosis of exclusion when someone believes in something larger than just a mundane life but doesn't want to have a doesn't have a label for it and what I'm saying and what I'm you know would like to to hear what you think on it is like isn't that just like scratching the surface of or like like cooking your baloney on the hood of a Lamborghini when it's hot you know like like you're uh you have something super awesome and you're not using it the idea okay yes yes yeah does that Vibe does that jive yeah this is interesting episode because you know you you're uh I wasn't thinking about these things coming in and now you're asking these like thought-provoking questions um and I'm you I'm trying to be honest about this I'll try to answer it as best I can in my own way okay so when I think about this for myself I go something happened to me in my late my uh early 20s where I got really interested in Zen and I got lucky in Chicago that I was able to study Zen at the place called the Japanese cultural center which is just in some Rando neighborhood in Chicago right I got end up playing with these Zen Masters I'm going somewhere with this trying to share it in a personal way so what happened then was I got lucky in that the Zen school I studied in was very flexible right so it was a zen master hakuin but he also had like a DS teacher in Japan and I was like oh okay so this is non-domination non- denominational it's uh Unitarian right is Unitarian yes so I got like okay that's cool and then you know in terms of like building a spiritual life I really thought like well should I go off and try to become some Zen monk in Japan we've talked about that in different episodes yeah totally or um do I have to become like a very like rigid Focus person just on this Zen thing I mean I had those questions but I got kind of lucky there too cuz the founder of this particular Zen School come from this hakuin guy who had this dos teacher was already kind of flexible yeah right but you know he was a university president he was a zen master he was a martial arts swords Master he was a great artist and calligrapher and I thought yes you know it's a round and full life you know yeah and the way it was frame for me and we' talked about this at different times along these conversations over the years but the way it was it kind of got to me was like all of these things could be pieced together to build an overall momentum of who you are right and you could kind of pull from The Riches of like you do the artistic stuff and that creates more sensitivity and expression you do the martial arts stuff and that gives you more power and will and perseverance and so on right meditation gives you Clarity and insight and wisdom and so on and so it all kind of built together I got interested in like even sexuality practices back then you know and that was like to learn how to use passion and to learn how to use those sexual feelings for spirituality so I guess it got big that partially answers the question you know and I you know I could put those different pieces together and in terms of the Lamborghini versus the piece of baloney I guess it was the idea that like I'm taking the I'm taking all the best parts from the different Autos yeah here's a little bit from Lamborghini here's a little bit from a Maserati or whatever the hell it's supposed to be yeah you know and I realize like okay that's building a complete life now I felt like I had the permission to do that because hakuin did it and you know all these great teachers did this as far as the Dal Lama school sonapa I I was I love these kinds of people he traveled all over to bat and he got everything that was available yeah you know so there's a flexibility in that that I found inspiring yeah you know it didn't have to be dogmatic which I think is a lot of what people like are backing off on the religious question they don't want to be on things that are dogmatic correct you know correct and so I was like you know this isn't I got lucky in the sense that these weren't dogmatic things you know and uh that allowed me to be able to put together what I thought was meaningful with the I mean the goal in the end I think again I'm thinking about g rbee a lot because I just did Retreat and he was on my mind you know during the retreat that we were just doing over the holiday break recording this early January and I was on Retreat after Christmas and like until just a couple days ago yeah and uh uh he gave me kind of like a through line through again to use that image you know he gave me a place to hang those things yeah and kind of like an idea of what enlightenment tailed we'll talk about that in our Retreat we talk about that in our episodes you know trying to explain it how that's thought about in like the vajana and especially the kind that g gria was sharing it goes back to the school of the Daly Lamas you know tantric practice tantric fdus practice so I always I got that as kind of the goal you know but I also got the idea that there's a flexibility within that you know so anyways does that answer some of the question hopefully yeah yeah yeah no I think maybe it gives the freedom to like construct your own uh Maserati or construct your own Lamborghini yeah you can like eat the baloney right right you know okay or just toss the baloney aside get something better once you drive the car over place than the baloney place right once you drive it to Walgreens yeah you know take it through the drive-thru somewhere you get something a little bit better than the baloney right and uh but you know there was a way of like seeing okay all of this stuff confused together you know and in that sense and there's no doubt I can go through and I can specifically say oh yeah the I studied cabala pretty seriously I was studying with like you know cabalistic rabbis and I was trying to really learn it I was reading you know in a very immersive way these great calistic texts as far as our episodes go we haven't even touched that subject actually it's still amazing we haven't scratched anything of that but we will at some point right so I can spefically say oh I learned that over there or that over there I learned things from Master Shenley Wong my Chinese medical dos teacher yeah things he taught me and I can I was thinking about that over the retreat too I can get like where I got some of these things that ultimately built together so I maybe that's what we're pitching to in a way maybe pitching is the wrong word but you know presenting you know sharing this idea like yeah you can have that you can have a serious spiritual life but that also Canna have that flexibility to it and you know you can take the pieces you know that you find moving and you know build something for yourself and I and I think the other part is that like you know leading a spiritual life for us is one that includes a practice so yes taking all the things in and and weaving them into your life is a practice but what I'm meaning more is a practice of cult conscious cultivation of whatever right uh I want to be I want to be inclusive of this because I know there's people who have different backgrounds who are listening you know but I feel like this is like you know if we were going to have something that could be you know really widely shared you know this would be one and asking this question of what is spirituality you know modern-day spirituality is definitely inclusive of plant medicines and you know healing stones and Tarot and numerology and astrology and all of these things right but as as a as a kind of its own maybe like um open-ended kind of if you want to call it a religion right the people who who are deeply practiced in those can have them as a much stronger much deeper tool one that penetrates into e The Ether much more because they have taken the time in their life to have those things as a practice you know so like just because you look at your horoscope doesn't mean that you know much about astrology there's an entire system of of of study behind it right same thing with tarot same thing with numerology like those are you know you you see the door but you actually have to go into that classroom and learn that thing in order for it to be really accessible to you I think part of the issue and this is a kind of a cultural thing people's attention spans are so short and that are so stressed out for time doing other things that it's like you take a little bit of this and I mean a little bit like you take one page out of this one book and one page out of that book and then eventually you make your own book but you're only one page deep in anything in particular and I feel like this is some of the this is my critique and I think some of the external world's critique of you know kind of spirituality is that it is shallow you know but actually I on one hand I I I agree with you know some of those sentiments but I think that's because people have yet to really like dive into a particular thing maybe because they haven't been called to yet you know but they have yet to really dive into something and really go beyond the introductory level teachings and finding the the the deeper gems that come through alchemis via that lens that they're kind of looking at does that does that Vibe yeah not again to use the word pitch not again to pitch our little retreat but that is a goal for me in that exactly you're damn right to be able to go through and say hey well we can give you like something that has uh I keep making this gesture yes yes but you know it's like it has a path to it yeah for those who are just listening Eric is milking an invisible cat you know well that might be more like that and that could be who knows but you know like uh like uh spreading out a a uh a string or something like that I don't know yeah sure yeah that how you milk of cat I don't yeah I don't know sideways cats yeah a couple of cats at the same time we're having cats um yeah I don't know it's kind of like one of these things where I I again I think um these things I got interested in had like deep theory behind them sure you know um and then by the time I think I got to studying with again G ruche you know I again he's on my mind but you know there was a way in which I could unite this all together in this sort of idea of how one could try to pursue Enlightenment which I suppose is my goal yeah you know I have less problem with the word spirituality though I understand the critique or the the points you're trying to make yeah it can be sort of like a vague word that doesn't really mean that much in the end yeah you know I like uh I like yeah like you say I like checking my horoscope every once in a while I pull a tarot card I'm spiritual you know yeah I I get it and you know we had at one point on one of our you know we've had on different guests and they've you know we've had conversations about what does this word spirituality mean yeah I kind of like the fact that it's kind of vague because it gives enough space for us to include all the different things might be interest and passions yeah but uh I get what you mean and like uh I it's always been important to me not to feel like I'm being a diletant too you know corre I'm just like if you guys if you use the metaphor it' be like you're not even taking the whole piece of baloney you're just taking like a little bit of some corner right there's a little meat a little fatty thing some of that weird [...] that comes as the Crusty part on the outside you know you're not even getting the whole slice yeah so yeah I get what you mean by that and I think you were talking a little bit earlier off Mike like that word pops up a lot on like social media now I'm a spiritual person I'm a spiritual person yeah and you get the intention of what people are trying to do they're trying to voice something about themselves and the belief and you know something more to life whatever that means for them right but it is fair to say like I know people who who say that kind of thing but it doesn't really go anywhere you know if you're honest about it you know and that's fine maybe the person doesn't want to go anywhere with that anyways and that's cool yeah it's a free life but you know as far as it goes um if you want something to go someplace you know that's right you can maybe still use this term but it has to mean something different for you right yeah yeah yeah awesome well that was good it constitutes an episode that's right that technically does yeah all right cool awesome that was good yeah and we'll we'll pick up we'll pick up next time with the attachment stuff it's just that I saw that on the on the notes here and uh I I I didn't want to uh I didn't want to gloss over I think it's a hell of a question so you know as far as a preview for next episode we'll continue with it and I think it's also you know we'll look at how attachment is talked about in you know Tibetan Buddhist culture right the tantric culture the non- tantri culture yeah and maybe with like trying to answer this question how do like Western people feel about attachment I'm not sure it's an interesting one for me you know uh the thing that you were focusing on what do people mean by spirituality that's a hell of a question and then what do people think about attachment and what does it mean to them I'm I'm debating that for myself you know not in my own life but like looking around at the people around me going what does that mean to them so to be continued for sure for sure all right cool well audience uh thank you for uh for rocking with us I know we've been we've been we've been Hawking our Retreat to you guys but uh you know it's available and uh you know but other than that you know please uh you know like comment subscribe wherever you're at wher however you're listening to us if this is your first or second or third or 50th episode thank you for tuning in we do appreciate the love and support hit us up J Tantra gmail.com uh the J and Tantra podcast on Instagram and uh yeah you know share our work we appreciate uh all the love and everything over the years and we are going to continue to do our thing uh until time immemorial Eric as always thank you my friend for riding the ship with me brother and uh we'll catch everybody in the next one peace [Music]